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Transcript of https://empoweredhumanacademy.com/34. (Hello from 20241111!)

Abe

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Empowered Human Academy. Today, we are sitting down with our friend and a person that I look up to, Agnes Igoye. I've been looking forward to this conversation for a long time. Agnes, thank you so much being with us from across the world. You're in Uganda right now. Thank you so, so much. How are you doing today? Today, tonight?

Agnes

Yeah, it is tonight. I am well. Greetings from Uganda. It is so nice to speak with you and thank you for inviting me to the academy and I'm looking forward to our conversation today.

Isaac

Me too, me too. I've been excited by what I've heard from the work that you and Abe have done with Clinton Global Initiative and it's a privilege to be talking to you today. So thank you. Our opening question is always one of identity and not necessarily the identity that you present to others, although there's probably some overlap. It may or may not have anything to do with your work, but when you wake up in the morning or when you come home at night or however you come home to yourself, when it's just you hanging out with you, what words of identity feel like they really fit? Who do you really feel like you are?

Agnes

For me, it is feeling alive, feeling having freedom and just being thankful. And the good thing is that Uganda has that even great environment because when I look out and I see trees, I see that I'm part of this universe. I did not think that I would still be alive today because I remember vividly when I was younger, about 14 running away from the Lord's Resistance Army where we had these commanders storming my village and looking for virgins. And I'm fleeing, running through bushes and sleeping in the cold in the night and being displaced at that age.

I did not think that I would leave to see what we are today because it's incredible because even amid this COVID-19 I still feel like I'm thankful and great to be alive and be surrounded with friends and family, and just be part of this universe that we all call our home.

So it's a privilege and it is feeling the freedom, and the freedom that I am a woman and I'm alive and I'm a woman, and I ended up getting educated by... I call it by accident because I remember being born in a family where the majority are girls and my father was questioned why he's wasting time to take his daughters to school because daughters are worth nothing and they're just people to get married off. And looking around my village and not seeing any role models, any women who have gone to school and have made it, and today, seeing where we have come all along those years.

So it's just a blessing. I don't take it for granted that I am alive, that I am free, that I can do whatever I put my mind to do. So it's just great to be part of this universe. So thank you for asking.

Isaac

Oh my goodness. Thank you for answering. Agnes, that's glorious. I don't know. I'm really excited to talk with you today. You've experienced and have come through and have been more alive than ever through, honestly, through a lot of experiences I've never had. And I hope to... I don't know. I want to spend this hour celebrating and exploring whatever you want to share. I'm really honored by your presence here and the things that you want to share.

So I think the first question that I want to ask is, I don't know, you grew up, it sounds like, in a place where... in a displaced place where you didn't have safety, where you weren't valued by many people around you. From what you recall, how did you feel about your self at that time? If that question is even appropriate. What was your relationship like with yourself when you were younger, when you were going through all those things and how has that changed over time? Does that question make sense?

Agnes

Yes, it does, but I'll just tell you what I vaguely remember, which was really a turning point. I was 10 years old and by the time I was 10, the boys in the village because I... First of all, I grew up in Eastern Uganda, a place called Pallisa. And in that village, the boys started calling me another name and it was a nickname and they would say [foreign language 00:05:15]. And I did not know what that meant because 10 years old and they would call me in a mocking way, they would make fun. And then I kept on asking my mother, "What does this name mean because you gave me... I have a different name, and people call me this name and they mock me, and they laugh at me." And then she realized that I was not going to leave her alone until she finally told me the meaning and it meant prostitute in my local language.

And then it dawned on me that that's how they saw the girl child. So they would call me a prostitute and then make fun of me and tease me. [inaudible 00:05:56] And then that's when I made my mother promise. I told her, "Mommy, I'm going to really, really work hard in life and embarrass this man by being successful in life, 10 years old." For me, success then did not mean the success I feel like of today.

For me, success meant that I had to do those things that the boy child does, that they refuse the women to do. Success meant that I have to walk to school. I did not even know what I would become. I just knew that I have to do those things and embarrass these boys that I can also do it, that I can go to school and be number one in class, that I can walk long distances like they do. I can climb trees like they do.

So I grew up that I have to do it. All the things that the boys do, even the girls can do them. Why do they call me a prostitute? So that was really fire in my belly. And luckily enough, I had really sweet, sweet parents. And my father was a man of firsts in that village. First, was the first man in the village to take all his daughters to school. First man, when we grew up later, to refuse bride price for his daughters because the way people started looking at bride price is that you give cows for somebody's hand in marriage as a token of appreciation. So it looked like they sold you into marriage. Because the reason I know why is because one time I literally saw my aunt, nine children later, her husband came storming my grandpa's crowd to take away his cattle and his goats, and everything, claiming that the bride price he paid then must have multiplied over the years.

So calling my aunt ugly and all those bad words. And then driving off all his animals saying that they must have multiplied over the years. So seeing that, I'm like, "Wow." So my father didn't want anything to do with that when we grew up. So he's a man of the first, he's a man to empower women in the village. So growing up with a father like that really helped because even when people told him it was useless to take girls to school, he still took us to school anyway.

So for me, those were turning points that I know that I come home to a loving family that all of us as girls. So much as we are a small island in this village where you may not have all those role models, but we had that home to come back despite the challenges. So for me that was really turning point and that's an environment that there was really love, genuine love at home with my siblings and with my parents.

Abe

That's amazing. So when you were experiencing these turning points, what was it like then implementing these actions like going to school and achieving things? Were there moments or experiences that stand out to you in terms of needing to recognize the fact that you could achieve the things that you want to? Were there moments where you felt empowered to continue going even when you came up against a hardship or maybe a moment of doubt?

Agnes

Yeah, definitely. It came in terms of even grants. There was some kind of excitement when you want the boys in class and that was fun. You are like, yeah. So when they're like, "Oh..." Because in the village and all that, and these kids want to know what was your position in class and all that. So it became kind of a competition in a way, and it would really bother some of the boys that I could win them despite the fact that we may not even be in the same school.

So for them to just hear that maybe you're the first or the second, and then they did not get those grades. So those were small wins when you're a little kid. But there were also certain challenging moments because I remember one time I was walking because we really had to walk five kilometers to school, and you can imagine if you are barefoot and then you knock your toe and you are bleeding, and then no one is there to support you and they leave you limping on the road because... And then another time I was walking and you had to walk through a certain thicket and then they would climb a mango tree. And then as you are walking down, then they shake it really hard and then to scare you.

So you'd scream, you'd really get so scared that despite all that, because there was this, remember I had that promise that I really, really need to work hard and be successful in life. So that really kept on pushing me, but also of course with my siblings, because we also used to have fun things at home and my parents would involve us in debates to make sure that we are resilient and we can debate, make you be in competition and then actually you learn how to lose. They would divide us in groups and then you'd sing or poems. Then there was a winning team and losing teams.

So you actually learn also how to lose and manage that. You'd cry okay, but it helped. And no wonder as you grow up, that confidence. A typical Christmas day would be... Because my parents would buy us similar clothing, then we'd go to church, but coming back, they would see and then you go one by one. Then they would ask you questions, appropriate to your age. One time they made us write an essay, who's a healthy child? That kind of training. And thank God, I thank God for teachers, that my parents were teachers. So the teaching and the training came from just childhood.

Even when we're displaced, we are able to be resilient because when you are running and fleeing away from the rebels, you run through different directions. So the fact that we managed to reach the internally displaced people's camp is also part of resilience to make you tough and strong, to live around people who are teasing you from home. So it was a mixture of all those things, but that resilience, that toughness, that love at home, that reaffirmations when your parents believe in you was really, really a blessing.

Isaac

It sounds like your parents are incredible people.

Agnes

I lost my dad-

Isaac

Just wonderful. I'm so happy for you.

Agnes

I lost my dad in 2017, but he left such legacy. He empowered all of us and we'll always be grateful for that.

Isaac

Yeah. From what it sounds like to be someone in the village like your father who intentionally was about the work of empowering women and girls and you, that's incredible. I'm so inspired, frankly. I want to know about how your motivation and your resilience, how all of that evolved over time. Coming up to where you are now, you talked about early on how you decided that you were going to succeed, that as a girl, becoming a woman, you were going to do all the things the boys could and you developed resilience and you learned how to lose and then how to win, all of these things.

How has that drive, how has that decision to succeed, all of that motivation, how has that evolved into where you are now? Does it feel the same way to you? Has it changed at all or is it the same kind of motivation that you had when you were 10?

Agnes

Now I don't have to really prove how I used to when I was younger because now there's so much changes that have come in the world because right now the way the world views women is better than how it was those days. The opportunities women are given, the way the men I've met along the way who value women, and I'm friends with so many men who have empowered my life even at work. So it's no longer... And even people in my village, the very people who used to give me trouble have evolved. They've learned better. They've seen success that a girl can achieve through us.

And so even their perspectives have changed. And some of them later even we see them now taking their grandchildren to school and not behaving the way. So it's really amazing because I'm not even mad at them because that's what they knew in their surroundings. And so now that they know better, so they have regrets in their lives, but I'm not mad. I mean I go home and I'm friendly to those people. I don't have any grudges because I know that that's the limited information they had then. And that's how they felt at that time.

Not that I'm justifying the bad things they did because many times exposure helps us to see things differently. That's why when you meet minority groups and all that, you just have to look at people, that people have different perspectives on things. That said, I am really glad. I'm also happy that... It may sound weird, but I'm actually glad that I grew up in such an environment because it's that environment that made me work hard and ended up because if I hadn't worked hard or had such pressure, I don't think I would've made it even to university because we had only one university. I made it to university.

I knew that that was not enough. I kept on craving for more. I went for my master's degree. I pursued and I knew that even in the line of work I can be a leader. Even when I finally did my master's programs, going to do a Fulbright at the University of Minnesota and then later going into Oxford, it meant to me that girls like me can also go to Oxford or girls like me can also go to Harvard. So when I went to Harvard in 2017, it's just like one of those things.

And I look up to women and other people in communities that have come from communities like the ones that have come from pursue those things. So I see that the more we see role models in front of us, the more we know that we can achieve. It's just like when you see women that a woman can be a president or a woman can be a vice president, there's something that gives you hope that those little girls when they see things like that, so their dreams become bigger. So I am grateful. If they told me, "Would you change anything?" Maybe the pain when I was a little kid, but it made me who I'm today.

Abe

Well, Isaac is crying right now, so that's really great. I was so blown away by what you said about they didn't know better at the time and exposure helps us change.

Isaac

Change.

Abe

And I think that's a really wise and really grounded perspective that you can be cordial to the people who gave you a hard time in the past. And I feel like that's so hard to do especially when you've been hurt by people in the past. So I'm just kind of blown away right now by your just effortlessness in talking about, "Oh yeah, I mean people evolve and accepting that and not holding a grudge."

I mean, that even challenges me thinking about the people who made fun of me in high school or growing up. It's okay to forgive and okay to recognize that people evolve and change and not hold that grudge. So thanks for talking about that. I think that's super important. I feel this sense of drive and more, and achievement, and expansion. And I think this is what I love about Empowered Human Academy is sitting down with people who are acting and living in alignment with that expansion and well expansive viewpoint on life.

You wake up today and currently you work with the Ugandan government. Correct? Can you tell us a little bit about what you do now and why you think it's important and what you love about it?

Agnes

Yeah, thank you for asking. All the things I do now or with the government is actually tied to my purpose. When I talk to young people who are still looking for that, "Okay, I don't know what I want to do," and all that, sometimes I tell them, "Don't look too far. Look around you." Or it can be in your childhood. It can be... Because for me, that experience fleeing the Lord's Resistance Army and being displaced, that's how I ended up doing counter-trafficking work.

It just kept following me because even for my master's program, I still went to look at how the families, the role of the families in the rehabilitation of children who were abducted by the Lord's Resistance Army, I just kept on following that. Sometimes even unconsciously. And so my first posting when I joined immigration service, I was a border guard with the border with Kenya. And I remember during that time I even caused the arrest of one of the commanders who had killed people in Northern Uganda, actually children. And okay, this is gross because he actually cooked people in pots because they use pots for cooking. And then boiled flesh made the villagers eat.

You can imagine eating your own children. And then he was fleeing the country and here he was working, young. It was about 11:00 PM and it was dark. And I think he did the timing. He had the right passport and the right name. And when he was just going out, you get that sixth sense because he wasn't looking me in the eye. So we call him back. So I talked to him. He had something that looked like a blade wound in his face. He had a cape on.

So we started finding out more only to realize because he had a satellite phone and it was really an expensive phone for such a person during that time. When we checked, he had... So he had all these contacts for the military. So we checked with the military command in Northern Uganda and all they said, "Oh my goodness, that's the guy we are looking for." And here I was with one of the most dangerous people in front of me. So I had to play my cool and pretend like I've not yet found out who he was.

And then we asked for backup for the police and then they took him. So the next morning there were young girls who were following him. I'm now at the border between Kenya and Uganda, and that was during the insurgency and there was still rebel activities. These young girls were following the next day... I think because of my experience, I was able to detect. They had new shoes on sandals and they had ragged clothing. And so the team, we decided to interview them differently only to find, oh my goodness, some of them were actually the sex slaves of the Lord's Resistance Army commander himself. Joseph Kony, one of the most wanted people whom they pursued for a long time. And these are girls who they're abducted and now they are using them as sex slaves. And here I was with them and to know the difference, and know that these ones deserve protection, and the guy of last night is the one who is really... So from that time, because that created a lot of publicity, I had also to be protected because of the news.

And then that's when I got the audience with the Minister of Internal Affairs then who is now our outgoing prime minister. And then he asked, "Agnes, how did you even figure out and find out who this guy was?" I said, "Honorable minister, we can actually train people how to identify because no one who is a terrorist or no one who is a human trafficker has it written on their face." So that's the first time I became the training manager. I was made the training manager for the Directorate of Citizenship and Immigration Control for Uganda.

So that's how my journey began. And then I started pursuing and knowing, "Okay, before even the Palermo protocol, before they got a name of what human trafficking was, I was already interested in the subject." And then when the world finally sat in Palermo, in Italy in 2000, that's when they said, "Okay, there's this global challenge and we're naming it human trafficking." And so that's how I kept on pursuing that and it informed my education. Because even during my Humphrey Fellowship at the University of Minnesota, I specialize in human trafficking policy and prevention.

When I went to Oxford, I did a course on migration, which has elements of trafficking. When I went to Harvard, I did a course which has trafficking because I have this career of continuously learning and meeting people who are interested in the subject and making sure that I create that awareness. And it was at the University of Minnesota that I joined the Clinton Global Initiative. Abe, I don't know whether you know how this all happened because it just popped out on my computer. And then I asked my academics for advice. I said, "Is this open to international students?" "Oh yeah, you can apply."

And then I applied and then after a couple of weeks I got a response from the Clinton Global Initiative that you know how the response is, out of 4,000 applicants who've been selected. And so I thought it was male. I thought that somebody was kidding and wanted to rob me of something. And so I thought it was a lie because I mean, I couldn't imagine that I'm asked to pack up my bag and go meet President Clinton. Who am I?

And so just casually, I told my academic advisor, "Do you remember that time, I got a message like this and that?" And he said, "Oh my goodness, it's actually true. You actually have to pack up your bags and go to San Diego." So that's how it happened to me. And when I finally met President Clinton, I had rehearsed and said, when I meet him, I'll ask him this and that. But when I met him, he just shook my head and said, "Agnes, thank you so much for honoring my invitation by coming." I just froze. I mean it was me. I felt honored to meet him and now here he's telling me he's honored to meet me. So like they said, and the rest is history.

Isaac

I love that story. Amazing. I hear so much delight and happiness in your voice and it's making me very happy over here also. And I want to know about how you... All the joy that I'm hearing and aliveness and going back to the very beginning when you were talking about freedom and being thankful and being part of everything, how do you hold those feelings alongside your work in human trafficking? A lot of people are experiencing pain. A lot of people are all over the place and you're close to these situations. How do you hold your joy, and your aliveness, and your freedom as you and your work are connected to people who are feeling and experiencing mortal danger and insecurity, and all of these things? How do you hold both of these things together?

Agnes

Thank you so much for bringing that up. When I was little and younger, of course I had bitterness. I was like, "Well, I'm not treated well," but over time you realize you just have to let go to be alive. If you never let go, you can never be alive. Because believe it or not, if somebody harms you and you feel bitterness, the person has moved on. Some of them don't even remember what they did to you when you were 10, but you'll remember everything because it's you who felt terrible. People have moved on.

And also what keeps me alive is that I know because I listen to survivor stories all the time, human trafficking, and the more you listen to them, the more you think that you've had the worst story than theirs. But I realize that these victims or survivors of trafficking need me healthy and alive to be able to support them.

So I have that in my mind. And I've also learned that human trafficking is a huge challenge. Some people don't even want to attempt. But for me, I just celebrate even the small wins. Even when you support one thing, one of the girls. I remember one time when I started responding to cases of human trafficking, one girl particularly made me start thinking about building a center for survivors because I used to take them to my house, because I had nowhere to take them. So this particular young lady, I had gone on awareness campaigns and she had recorded my number, which I had gave.

A year later, I get an email and I was actually at the US time, and then she wanted to meet with me, and I tried to refer her to other people. She waited for me. She said, "I'll wait for you." So I was with her in my office. That's when she tells me she was circumcised as a young girl. And before she healed, she was married off to somebody and taken out of the country. And years of abuse. And then finally she stole her husband, the abuser's credit card and crammed everything and bought herself a ticket to another country so that no one can find her.

I won't say the country because I don't want to expose much and to flee away from her parents because the parents are the ones who forced her into this situation. But when she went to that country, of course she ran short of money. She didn't know anybody. Then she decided to return to her parents' home and they were so upset with her because you don't run away from your marriage. They started giving her nicknames and all that.

And so she's telling me all this and she's still undergoing abuse. And then I said, "Oh my goodness." Then she had to return. I gave her my number. I said, "Call me in case of anything, anytime." So one time she calls me and it was slightly past midnight and she's crying. Her mother had beaten her. She didn't know where she was. I told her, "Go to the next gas session," and then tell me where that is. So I went and picked her and brought out to my house.

My mother and my sister were used to the idea of waking up and knowing that, "Oh, Agnes has brought somebody else." And so we tried so much to make her comfortable at home, but I didn't have any centers or anywhere to take her for more privacy. And then a few days later, she left. And so that was even the reason for my Clinton Global Initiative commitment of action. I said, "I must build this center and I have to start from somewhere." And I remember when I made a commitment at the Clinton Global Initiative to build a center for survivors and train law enforcement, I started saving my money from my student stipend because I figured very quickly that Americans waste food at the university at least.

And so even my friends knew where there was leftovers at the university where there was a function. So I saved money that started the foundation for the sector. And then much later, that's when Diane Von Furstenberg, when I was given the DVF award, and I used that award money to complete the center. So it has been that journey and that drive, and feeling that there's so much to live up to. And many times because I speak to so many survivors, I find that there are people who have been in worse off situations than I am. And so I have to be thankful for that, and to feel alive and to feel healthy, to be able to support other people. Sorry. I answer questions in a very long way to help that. Thanks.

Isaac

Thank you so much. All of this storytelling is incredible and I really appreciate you going into such detail. Frankly, I'm really excited and inspired by the things that you're sharing here. So please tell as many stories as you can.

Abe

I hear the word and the threat of aliveness and in your story, both from the things you've experienced and the way you help others and the way you view being alive like you were talking about. And I'm curious, what makes you Agnes, the leader, the friend, the sister, the human feel alive? And what's your relationship to your own aliveness?

Agnes

Thank you. I mean, it is so many blocks into my aliveness. First of all, I come from a really loving family. I have my siblings and my mom. My mom is a kind of person because when I'm responding, for example, to issues of human trafficking, I would come home and if I'm not bubbly like I am always, she just knows that, "Okay, it must have been a long day for Agnes." She just try and get my yoga mat and just lay it beside. And then I just remove my uniform and I just start stretching without even talking. So thought.

And then after a few minutes, they'll see me on TV, maybe responding to counter-trafficking cases. So going home and knowing that you're going to this loving family where you can be yourself without trying to be strong and all that. But also they are super, super supportive in everything I do. They have a hand in it. They're excited. I see even the little things today. Today I was featured on the newspaper and yesterday I was addressing [inaudible 00:34:32] all media houses, all TVs feature that I was speaking.

But the way they're excited for me, the way I'm getting messages from friends and all that, that's what keeps me alive, and a sense of purpose. And knowing that you don't have to move mountains to make a difference. It's like those small, small steps. And then I also have the young people, the youth whom I mentor. Oh my goodness, seeing them achieve things, I get so excited. I mean, when you walk through their struggles and empower them and see them getting confident and applying for those things they thought they would not achieve.

The fellowships, getting our words at work because we walk through them and hearing their stories. And to know that, "Okay, this is a younger generation." Because I'm at that stage where we are the older generation because we have now to empower younger people. And so to make sure that you're part of that journey and to be among them. I like being among young people, youthful people, because there's a certain vibe they have. Even amid this COVID-19, I mean, being able to reach out to other people, to put up that smile, to be part of the community that, "Okay, how do we support our community as we move?"

So that brings me so much joy. And being a part of the Clinton Global Initiative out there, you can imagine many times when we have our Zoom sessions and talking to our mentees and also us as mentors, it's really exciting. And during lockdown, the times we checked in on each other. I mean, being part of that community and knowing that whenever you are in the world, whatever race, whatever gender you are, you part of this human nature. And to have friendships that cut across that, all the struggles we have, there are common struggles.

All the joys we have, we can be joyful among others. So that's exciting to me and having a sense of purpose. And I'm also excited and glad that I'm really surrounded by a lot of positivity. I think positive attract positive people. And so I choose to lead my life because I get... You'd be surprised that many of the milestones I've got in my life, I've got them whenever I get a challenge or through hardship, that's when I perform best. I don't know. That's how I perform best. I remember even when somebody tells me I can't do something, that's when I go and do beyond. I'm first a challenger. I always look out what is that silver lining, however difficult it is.

Because I remember even my dad, I tell my dad, I love my dad so much. By the time he died, I said, "Okay, whenever I do something, what would daddy say? What would make daddy happy?" There are those moments. Whenever I go through hardships, that's when a lot of magic comes into play. That's just how I have been wired and I'm so thankful for that. The challenges in my life give me purpose to do good.

Isaac

This is beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. Thank you for sharing all of this. I'm really struck by and excited by what I'm hearing about the things that seem to be a part of your wiring, the things that come out of you, and the things that you love and rely upon in your environment. When we talk about empowerment, for me anyway, the word empowerment has a lot to do with the self, the things that I realize in myself and the things that I bring forward. And sometimes I forget to think about... Or sometimes even I try to forget about the role of my environment, focusing on realizing my own empowerment. But I'm reminded in what you're saying that there's... I don't know. You're getting such good things from your environment and you're celebrating the people around you.

I don't know. Can you tell me more about the relationship for you between the joy that comes from within you and the joy that you find around you? Does that make sense?

Agnes

Yeah. Because first of all, you have to have joy and have love into yourself to be able to give. You don't give what you don't have. Yes, I've been through those moments. Sometimes you need to cry to feel relief and feel okay. It's actually okay to cry. It is not that every time you are bubbly and all that. I've met challenges in my life. When my dad died, you cry. And those moments coming, but you'll realize that however much you'll hear from people, you first have to walk into your inner self. You first have to.... It's no one's responsibility to love you before you love yourself because however much they love you, I mean, it won't make sense.

Love will meet love. If you love yourself, then you're able to give it. You don't give out hate. If you have bitterness in your heart, you can't give bitterness and people feel the love in you. It'll even be difficult to give you love to love you. And so you first have to work on that and let go because it's very important because when you let go of certain things is where you'll be filled by the positivity. And keeping that positivity and also knowing where people are coming from. Because for me, there are people who have done me wrong, but when I analyze and actually see the position they are in, I actually realized that there are also people who are hurting. Hurt people hurt people.

I see it even the counter-trafficking world in which I work, there are some survivors of human trafficking who end up recruiting and being recruiters because hurt people hurt people. So that's why even in rehabilitation work, there's a lot of patience in that because some people when they hurt you, that pain makes people... That's why it's important to seek help, to surround yourself. And also have that empathy and look out for each other. In community, there are people... Even at work, I'm the kind of person, I remember when we joined service and I hear that, "Oh, somebody is battling issues with alcohol or this person is suicidal," and I reach out. I actually find out what's going on because it's important.

And also people even in [inaudible 00:41:51] there are people who don't easily talk about their challenges and keep quiet. But also it's important to have an environment in which people are free to share or to be your friend. Make it easy for people to be your friend. It's like how I challenge some of the people of my generation that we are supposed to be empowering and nurturing the younger generation and be accessible. Don't put layers. Somebody has to come to your office and pass through your secretary. I'm like, "No. I mean, come on, be reachable." Because there's a responsibility for the people who came before us, who fixed things that we are enjoying today. So it's our responsibility to fix what is wrong today for others who come after us.

So the moment we learned that this world we are in, that if it's your turn to make a difference in need for others, then do what you're supposed to do for others because the first generations did it for us. So there's a joy about giving and loving people. If somebody has not yet figured it out, I mean that's the fastest way in which you can get fulfillment and be happy when you support others and when people celebrate you because of what you've done to them. Those are blessings. And it pays off in a way because then there are people happier somewhere because you made a difference in their lives and that happiness wraps into you.

Isaac

Yeah, that makes so much sense. I'm so encouraged I think by the way, you talk about empathy too. Viewing people... Hurt people hurt people, that idea. And I'm glad that you brought that up because I've been thinking how to ask the question about good versus bad. And given what you've seen and the people that you've seen in different circumstances, I don't know, I'm still not sure exactly how to ask the question, but I think it's something like how do you think about the words good and bad? What do those mean or not mean when you think about the world and the people that you maybe encounter and that you work with, people on either side of trafficking situations.

Given all the things that you've seen and the empathy and understanding that I'm hearing in your voice and in your words, how do you think about, I don't know, moving the world towards good and what relationship does the idea of bad have with that? How do you think about that general subject?

Agnes

Yeah, those are really pertinent questions like the good and bad. But the way I live my life, when something bad happens to me, I always try my best to see, "Okay, what good even in the very ugly, this is." Some of them are really learning moments and make sure that you don't dwell so much because we are human beings. There's no one who's going to live through this world without getting hurt or without having an obstacle or challenge. Some people get it when they're younger. There's no one who goes through that, "Oh wow, I'm having such a right."

We always have to make those cautious decisions that, "Okay, this has happened, so I rather fall and collapse and die. Or I get up and force myself to go to a certain day." Because we're in the COVID times because some people who say right now, because we're on a partial lockdown again in Uganda, so people say that, "Okay, when you get... Make sure that you don't go to your bed and all that. Always force yourself to get up and go and consume some sunshine and all that when you're still able."

So that struggle that despite the challenge you have, what do you learn from it? What is uplifting? Because for me when I get a challenge like that, I keep away from... You make a conscious decision to keep away from negativity, negative people. You make sure that you surround... Like I said, I'm really lucky. I'm surrounded by really a loving family and loving friends. They are in. And always I get something to do. For example, when I get a challenge, that's when maybe I'll go to school and do something or you can travel. Because we cope differently. We cope differently.

I've also learned just as some people look out for me, if I'm faced with challenge to make sure that I am okay, I also do that for other people, because that's what we are here for to support each other. And some people cope because we are all wired differently. People cope in different ways. That's why you'll find that some people who are really... who people thought had a great life and all that and always happy and all that, commit suicide. And then we're like, "Oh my goodness, I did not know that they were depressed."

So it's always important to look out for each other. So even within the bad. Of course there are bad people, but I always also find, I want to find that why is that person bad? Because no one is born bad. When a baby Is born, all babies are cute and loving. What happened their life journey that made them bad? It is just like, I remember on the ICC when Ongwen was indicted, and this is a man who was abducted at 10 years old, then he joined the ranks of the Lord's Resistance Army.

Now, at the Hague, he was convicted of what of humanity. So I was asking somebody who... I mean, "What do you tell Ongwen's mother? That I have my baby at 10 and my baby is abducted to join the ranks of the Lord's Resistance Army. He's groomed into that army and made to kill people. And then later on, no one protected my child from me." And then what you tell a mother like that? So Ongwen, he was taken at 10. He did not all of a sudden... His trajectory when he was born was not that he was going to become a bad person. And so groomed into that. Even people who go into robbery and into killing, I always want to know what happened in their lives.

At what point, even if it's peer pressure... Because no one is born with anger issues. No one is born hating each other. No one is born creating... Even the people who are racist and all that, they're not born like that. Those are things we learn along the way. So that's why it is important that as kids are growing up, as people around your community, how are you living in that environment and how are you taking care of people who are hurt before they get escalating to start doing bad things to other people.

So the difference between good and bad, the people who go bad is really community sometimes has not seen that person and supported that person to remain good in certain ways. So I know that good and bad is looked up differently by other people. But as I live my life, I really always want to find out what made that person a bad person.

Because bad people whom you think are bad also have best friends. So what is that best [inaudible 00:50:14] that person you're saying is bad? How come they have a friend? So that means they have some good in them. So what make them do bad things and what makes people good and not do bad things? How are they nurtured? What trajectory did they go? That's how I really look at good and bad. And I'm sure that everybody has perspectives on what good and bad looks like according to the way the environment shook them and how they grew wherever they grew up with.

Because the person who grows up in a place infested with violence and all that will see many bad things and may have a different opinion or what good and bad looks like.

Isaac

I am absolutely delighted over here.

Abe

Same.

Isaac

I've never heard that idea. Even the bad people, even they have friends, which means there must be something good in there. I've never thought about that. Thank you for sharing all of this, honestly. I'm really excited by what you're sharing and I'm grateful.

Abe

And we could talk to you for hours about everything. This hour has gone by so quickly, and I just want to come back a little bit to the point where you were saying, "No one is born racist. Babies are loving." And I always talk about the fact that why do we celebrate kids? And then at one point, you're just like an adult now and you don't get to be celebrated. I'm like, "Wait, I want to be celebrated like I did when I was 10," and I'm 31 right now. So it's like that need for love and celebration doesn't necessarily go away. And I'm always fascinated with, you get trophies and then you can do everything and you graduate high school and then it's like, "Well, you're an adult now. Welcome to the real world."

And I'm like, "Oh, let's bridge that gap because we can actually have a world where we celebrate one another and we love one another like we did when we were seven." And I think that kind of ties back to what you were talking about that's really empowering because environment does really affect... Like you said, positive people attract positive people. And that's why I love talking to you and all the other mentors at CJU because we believe in building a better world.

So we're wrapping up this conversation and we end the conversation with two questions. The first question is, what does an empowered Agnes look like and feel like?

Agnes

Wow. And empowered Agnes, first of all, she's happy. And wow, that's amazing that she can do whatever she feels to do as long as it doesn't hurt anybody. The sky is not even the limit for an empowered Agnes that through her other people can also tap into her energy. And especially the youth. I become more empowered when the people whose lives are touched get empowered. So that's the empowerment I'm most likely crave and want that when another person is empowered, that's my empowerment. It's like that's the empowerment I share. I hope that makes sense, yes.

Abe

I love how you said the sky is not even the limit. I love that. And also just this conversation we're tapped into your energy 100%. I'm just like, when you're in the US next, or if we're ever in Uganda, I want to converse with you all night and talk late into the night about life because you're so amazing. Isaac?

Isaac

Oh, yeah. I'm sending you a huge hug from over here. I heard the smile on your face when you were starting to think about what does an empowered Agnes looks like and feel like. I don't know. I feel like I can sense you glowing over there and I'm just grateful for the time that we're sharing today. Our last question is, what do you know for sure?

Agnes

Wow. What do I know for sure that I was meant to be in this world? I am not an accident, that I was an accident who just happened, that I was actually meant to be in this space at this time doing the things I'm doing. And that drive, that's why whatever challenge that comes my way, I'm like, "No, I was meant to be in this world at this time doing the things I'm in now." And no one can rob that away from me because that is the space I was prepped for. So that I know for sure that I'm not here by accident.

Isaac

Agnes Igoye, I am so thankful for our time here with you. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Abe

Thank you so much for having me. We're both just blown away and just feel... I don't know about you Isaac, but we just feel really expansive and grounded after this conversation. And it's a beautiful reminder to us and to the listeners to really believe in what's possible and maybe even change your perspective, changing my perspective when it comes to hardship and changing the narrative around that to some good can be derived from that. You're just an endless source of inspiration and love, and we're just so, so grateful that you spent the last hour with us. Thank you so much for your time, and we'll be talking to you soon.

Agnes

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you for the friendship, and thank you for what you all mean to me. And thank you for what you're doing, telling our stories, and reaching out to people. I'm so grateful for this conversation. And yes, I look forward, continue post-COVID and face-to-face so that we can have that chat all night. I appreciate it.

Isaac

All right, wonderful. Thank you, Agnes. We'll talk soon. Cheers.

Abe

Cheers.

Agnes

Bye-bye.